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FFIM is a non-profit organization devoted to promoting and preserving Maine's fisheries
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PostPosted: August 12th, 2019, 12:52 pm 
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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/climate/endangered-species-act-changes.html

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PostPosted: August 12th, 2019, 4:28 pm 
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This ones going to get locked too Hunter. The instant that some one points out the fact that continued support for the trump admin means putting the environment on the back burner, the managers of this site, which presumably has as one of its missions, the preservation of cold water fisheries, is going to lock it because it will be deemed uncivil.


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PostPosted: August 12th, 2019, 9:37 pm 
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AusableWulff wrote:
This ones going to get locked too Hunter. The instant that some one points out the fact that continued support for the trump admin means putting the environment on the back burner, the managers of this site, which presumably has as one of its missions, the preservation of cold water fisheries, is going to lock it because it will be deemed uncivil.


Agreed and pretty damning as far as I'm concerned. Apparently you can't advocate for sensible environment measures/laws/regulations by pointing out the devastation this administration is wreaking on the public. God forbid someone gets their sensitive panties in a bunch and they need to whine about the posts rather than actually standing up for their point view and defending a position.

After 25+ years here I'd decided to pretty much walk away from this forum. I've decided there are more important things in this world than pithy trip reports.

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PostPosted: August 12th, 2019, 9:53 pm 
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For what it’s worth, the prior post that got shut down wasn’t shut because of civil debate. It got shut due to personal attacks, lack of civility, etc..

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PostPosted: August 12th, 2019, 10:00 pm 
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Bye.

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PostPosted: August 12th, 2019, 10:08 pm 
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Hutch wrote:
Bye.


"Yawn"

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PostPosted: August 13th, 2019, 8:38 am 
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No matter what your political leanings, if you care about the environment, this is bad news- and done through the rule making process only. Expect to see suit filed today....

The ESA is one of the great triumphs of conservation in history, if not the greatest. Just imagine, realizing that protecting these species might have a value that trumps ( pun intended) economic values- that there is an intrinsic value not based upon dollars to their very existence.... The Snail Darter, the Spotted Owl, Snake River Steelhead, Atlantic Salmon; Apache Trout. How about grizzly bears, bald eagles, grey wolves, Canadian Lynx....

Perhaps someone realized that these species were also the "Canary in the Coal Mine"?

Read your Sinclair Lewis- not only can it happen here; it is happening here.


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PostPosted: August 13th, 2019, 9:20 am 
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Teddy Roosevelt's rolling in his grave.

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PostPosted: August 13th, 2019, 9:25 am 
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This is the Trump-version of the Obama-era "Waters of the US" rule. Both issues were driven not in the senate or house chambers, but by political machinations of the rule making process. The big difference, the Obama administration was ordered by the courts to develop rules for protecting waters of the US. Obama tried to get the politicians to enact new rules, but when they failed (largely due to one political party stonewalling the other), it left no other option than for the administration to move forward with rule making to comply with the court order. On the other hand, this Trump-era rule making procedure appears entirely driven by capitalistic interest (YMMV).

For as much lip service as some sectors of Washington politicians were making over it "being an abuse of power" for administrations to create major changes to rules without debate on the floor of either chamber, or for using the courts to vote in new rules, this issue will ultimately go in front of the judicial system for review. We will see where it shakes out. In the meantime- remember to vote in your upcoming elections.

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PostPosted: August 13th, 2019, 9:56 am 
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It's only an abuse of power if you don't agree with the reason for the executive action.... So it does cut both ways. Of course, we could also have the science vs. fiction debate. It is happening here..... At least Nero could play the fiddle.


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PostPosted: August 14th, 2019, 11:05 am 
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Nice synopsis of the promulgation of law versus governing by executive order process Hunter So every administration makes the argument they are compelled to govern by executive order because the legislative branch is ineffective and they have no choice, until they realize the next administration will just use the same executive branch power, some call it over reach, to wipe their executive orders out. (Or, the Supreme Court weighs in) Which is what Bush did to Clinton, Obama did to Bush, and now Trump is doing to Obama. You can argue one administration is better at it, or is more justified based on your morale leanings, but in the end it's all the same. It's a vicious cycle and only the lobbyists and special interests win (get filthy rich). The Founding Fathers devised a nearly perfect system by creating the Legislative, Executive, and Legislative branches, and the natural tension that occurs between them to maintain equilibrium. I say nearly perfect because it seems that more recently the executive branch is becoming more clever at undermining the process. Is this something that has happened in the past or a new twist? Cyclical? Or are we seeing a viral evolution in our democratic genetics? I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that knows the history on this.


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PostPosted: August 14th, 2019, 12:52 pm 
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Split Shot wrote:
Nice synopsis of the promulgation of law versus governing by executive order process Hunter So every administration makes the argument they are compelled to govern by executive order because the legislative branch is ineffective and they have no choice, until they realize the next administration will just use the same executive branch power, some call it over reach, to wipe their executive orders out. (Or, the Supreme Court weighs in) Which is what Bush did to Clinton, Obama did to Bush, and now Trump is doing to Obama. You can argue one administration is better at it, or is more justified based on your morale leanings, but in the end it's all the same. It's a vicious cycle and only the lobbyists and special interests win (get filthy rich). The Founding Fathers devised a nearly perfect system by creating the Legislative, Executive, and Legislative branches, and the natural tension that occurs between them to maintain equilibrium. I say nearly perfect because it seems that more recently the executive branch is becoming more clever at undermining the process. Is this something that has happened in the past or a new twist? Cyclical? Or are we seeing a viral evolution in our democratic genetics? I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that knows the history on this.


I think the difference we see now is that this President truly does not believe there are any constraints on his Power; he has stated clearly that Article II says he can do whatever he wants (or he has simply failed to actually read anything other than Article II). As for historical antecedents- how about Andrew Jackson's reply to the Court's decision in Worcester v. Georgia- "John Marshall has made his decisions; now let him enforce it". Is it a coincidence that the President most admired by our current President is Andrew Jackson?

Is this the death of our Republic? Perhaps, but not necessarily because of executive overreach, but rather the intentional stoking of those fires of discontent that have laid dormant for so long. Is that discontent justified? That is another discussion. Just as other demagogues were able to rise to power by fomenting hate and discontent, this demagogue is trying the same tactic, successfully, so far. He should be mindful of Edmund Burke; however, "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it."


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PostPosted: August 15th, 2019, 1:59 pm 
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Split Shot wrote:
Nice synopsis of the promulgation of law versus governing by executive order process Hunter So every administration makes the argument they are compelled to govern by executive order because the legislative branch is ineffective and they have no choice, until they realize the next administration will just use the same executive branch power, some call it over reach, to wipe their executive orders out. (Or, the Supreme Court weighs in) Which is what Bush did to Clinton, Obama did to Bush, and now Trump is doing to Obama. You can argue one administration is better at it, or is more justified based on your morale leanings, but in the end it's all the same. It's a vicious cycle and only the lobbyists and special interests win (get filthy rich). The Founding Fathers devised a nearly perfect system by creating the Legislative, Executive, and Legislative branches, and the natural tension that occurs between them to maintain equilibrium. I say nearly perfect because it seems that more recently the executive branch is becoming more clever at undermining the process. Is this something that has happened in the past or a new twist? Cyclical? Or are we seeing a viral evolution in our democratic genetics? I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that knows the history on this.


I think TG is right that this president IS different, at least by degree. He is also uniquely bad on environmental issues in a way we have not seen at least the Ronald Reagan era, and even then I think the roll backs were less brazen. That was partly because he had to deal with Democrats in control of the Legislative Branch, which meant there was more oversight of Reagan's more controversial decisions and appointees. It almost seems quaint to remember Secretary of Interior James Watt being forced to resign for a racist/sexist statement, or EPA Administrator Anne Goresuch doing the same when the president decided to turn over records about the Superfund program that had been subpoenaed by Congress.

We've also seen a massive change in the willingness of legislators to work with colleagues from the other party to get things done. Too often, they'd rather stake out clear distinctions between the two parties. With D's controlling the House and R's the Senate, that's a recipe for gridlock. Some presidents would try to forge common ground on important issues, but I haven't noticed much of that recently.


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PostPosted: August 15th, 2019, 2:08 pm 
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Jeff Reardon wrote:
Split Shot wrote:
Nice synopsis of the promulgation of law versus governing by executive order process Hunter So every administration makes the argument they are compelled to govern by executive order because the legislative branch is ineffective and they have no choice, until they realize the next administration will just use the same executive branch power, some call it over reach, to wipe their executive orders out. (Or, the Supreme Court weighs in) Which is what Bush did to Clinton, Obama did to Bush, and now Trump is doing to Obama. You can argue one administration is better at it, or is more justified based on your morale leanings, but in the end it's all the same. It's a vicious cycle and only the lobbyists and special interests win (get filthy rich). The Founding Fathers devised a nearly perfect system by creating the Legislative, Executive, and Legislative branches, and the natural tension that occurs between them to maintain equilibrium. I say nearly perfect because it seems that more recently the executive branch is becoming more clever at undermining the process. Is this something that has happened in the past or a new twist? Cyclical? Or are we seeing a viral evolution in our democratic genetics? I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that knows the history on this.


I think TG is right that this president IS different, at least by degree. He is also uniquely bad on environmental issues in a way we have not seen at least the Ronald Reagan era, and even then I think the roll backs were less brazen. That was partly because he had to deal with Democrats in control of the Legislative Branch, which meant there was more oversight of Reagan's more controversial decisions and appointees. It almost seems quaint to remember Secretary of Interior James Watt being forced to resign for a racist/sexist statement, or EPA Administrator Anne Goresuch doing the same when the president decided to turn over records about the Superfund program that had been subpoenaed by Congress.

We've also seen a massive change in the willingness of legislators to work with colleagues from the other party to get things done. Too often, they'd rather stake out clear distinctions between the two parties. With D's controlling the House and R's the Senate, that's a recipe for gridlock. Some presidents would try to forge common ground on important issues, but I haven't noticed much of that recently.


And who is Anne Burford Gorsuch's son?????


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PostPosted: August 16th, 2019, 3:49 pm 
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NY Times on the issue:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/16/opin ... lands.html

Also, there is an organization called "Back Country Hunters and Anglers" which is dedicated to keeping public land public if you have an interest:

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/


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