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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 9:19 am 
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I decided to pick up a rod ( small investment) and try it out after watching my son and another friend doing it in Montana. Perhaps the bigger discussion is the fact that if certain waters were not designated FFO, the implication is that that they would be ruined by plunkers....


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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 9:34 am 
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Does anyone really "cast" while using any kind of nymph rig? Doubt it. It's more "lobbing" or "flicking" than anything. Heck some of the nymph rigs I see (with weights & flies) resemble some of the things folks use to jig for mackerel on some of the fish piers. :lol:

The only exception I see is tying a dropper on a dry fly setup.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 10:00 am 
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InTheTrees wrote:
Does anyone really "cast" while using any kind of nymph rig? Doubt it. It's more "lobbing" or "flicking" than anything. Heck some of the nymph rigs I see (with weights & flies) resemble some of the things folks use to jig for mackerel on some of the fish piers. :lol:

The only exception I see is tying a dropper on a dry fly setup.

Good point.
I’m tight-lining, with no indicator, not out more than 12 feet or so, for almost all my nymph fishing. The indicator is useless because you feel everything.
I just fell into this method fishing heavy water, and it was so successful I basically adapted it outright. Almost always a barbless, two-fly rig. In extremely rare cases I might tie on a third. It’s not The Euro method...I couldn’t even tell you what the heck that is. But I’m not casting fly line, either. With little effort, I find it very easy to lob my mono/fluoro 12-14’ leader upstream to start the drift. After 15 mins working my way up or downstream, it’s just reflex. I Don’t even think about it.
I’m fly fishing, and I’d challenge the warden to prove otherwise, as foolish as that may be.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 10:35 am 
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title guy wrote "Perhaps the bigger discussion is the fact that if certain waters were not designated FFO than the implication is that they would be ruined by plunkers"

Bingo title guy! Waters in Maine that carry the FFO designation do so because Maine Fish and Wildlife has decided that in order for some waters to maximize their potential as fisheries they need a certain level of protection. Granted, there are a few waters that were given the FFO designation in the early part of the 20th century because that's what property owners wanted at that time and now tradition plays a role in keeping the FFO designation on those waters. Whatever the reason, the rules governing a given water are there to help make the water a better more healthy fishery. Isn't that what we all want?


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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 11:07 am 
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In addition to Mike Holt's comment about the law.
FFO laws were changed about 30 years ago I think.
The law used to read "to which no weight has been added".
Most of us assumed that referenced the fly line and meant we could not use split shot.
Then with the advent of bead head flies a similar discussion raged about "additional weight"
I think Mike and I had a couple of discussions about that in his shop at the time.
So while the euro nymph method is allowed on AOL waters, I think Mike is correct that the practice is not allowed on FFO waters.
A simple answer is to get the law changed to reference the terminal tackle (fly, AOL, bait) rather than the method of moving the fly as it seems to be the only fishing method that doesn't reference the terminal tackle only.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 12:03 pm 
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InTheTrees wrote:
Does anyone really "cast" while using any kind of nymph rig? Doubt it. It's more "lobbing" or "flicking" than anything. Heck some of the nymph rigs I see (with weights & flies) resemble some of the things folks use to jig for mackerel on some of the fish piers. :lol:

The only exception I see is tying a dropper on a dry fly setup.


I cast my rig(weighted flies and indicator)99% percent of the time. The only time that changes is when I need to add shot to the rig, which is rare. Perhaps a new thread should be started about changing an out dated and probably unconstitutional law.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 12:12 pm 
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Some thoughts:

(1) Calling this technique "euro-nymphing" and seeing it as something "new" makes me laugh. I remember reading about spooling a fly reel with mono and casting a weighted nymph or a nymph and split shot rig in Joe Humphrey's "Trout Tactics". The "updated and expanded" edition of that book was published in 1993. I'm pretty sure it was the older version I read, and that happened while I was in middle or high school, which would have been 1979-85.
https://www.amazon.com/Joe-Humphreyss-Trout-Tactics-Expanded/dp/0811708748
(2) At the time, I asked Dad whether we could try it on Sourdnahunk Stream one day when the trout were not coming to dry flies or streamers. We had a spool of 4 pound mono in the car because Dad was a cheap bastard and used dime store mono for tippet material. He said, "Nope. That's not fly fishing and we'd get pinched." Later in the day we encountered a group of anglers who were staying at the Sourdnahunk campground and fishing under the bridge trying to cast dry flies to rising trout on spinning rods. One guy even managed to catch a trout about 10 feet from him with the rig--no weight or casting bubble--and a casting motion something like Luis Tiant's wind-up. 6' spinning rod, about 6 feet of mono outside the tip top, and he laid it out there and got a nice drift. Dad said, "That's not legal either", but the ranger, who was standing and watching those guys to make sure nobody threaded a worm or put on a Panther Martin did not agree and told the guys they were OK. No idea what a warden might have said back then, and would have enjoyed watching that scene play out. FWIW that section of stream is now ALO, in part to avoid that exact situation.
(3) Dad and I argued about whether various techniques were "legal" for fly fishing or not from then until he died more than 15 years ago. We never reached mutual satisfaction on that issue--or much else except that we both loved brook trout, each other, springer spaniels, and my mother and sister, not necessarily in that order. I doubt we'll resolve it to everyone's mutual satisfaction here. :lol:
(4) Dad never would use split shot on a fly rod, but I did once get him to try an indicator and weighted nymph rig. The bright orange indicator was promptly smacked by a 16" brook trout, whereupon Dad put on a pink Doodlebug and nailed it on the next cast, telling me, "I told you a real fly would work better." I used to have a picture of Dad with that trout that Richard Procoppio took, but I lost it when I got married and moved into the house I live in now.
(4) I am a fan of--and own a bamboo rod designed for--making short casts on brushy little streams with nothing but the leader outside the tip top. (I've always sucked at the bow and arrow cast, so I compensate with a custom-built rod from a friend.) On most of these streams a 10' cast is a long one, and I generally fish with 10' leaders. Am I not fly fishing when I do that?
(5) My casting motion when fishing that way is way nicer than that guy with the spinning rod doing the Louis Tiant impression under the bridge in Baxter State Park. And Dad would approve--of both the rig and my improved casting.
(6) I don't much care or worry about whether a warden writes me a ticket with that rig, and I mostly use it on waters that are general law or ALO anyway. I will NOT hesitate to use it on FFO waters, and I will gladly argue with the warden who tries to write the ticket and the judge if the warden follows through. I have visions of me demonstrating my lovely little rod, my carefully hand-tied leaders and delicate little flies, and my casting technique for an admiring audience and charming the judge and the poor assistant DA who gets assigned my case until they dismiss the charges. I'd include something about the physics of truncated cones, and how human muscles and tendons, fly lines, tapered leaders, and fine crafted rods all use them to transfer energy from arm to hand to rod to line to leader to fly, interspersing technical terms about "parabolic" and "convex" tapers, tight loops, matching the diameter of the fly line to the butt of the leader for efficient energy transfer, maybe with diagrams from new and old books on my book shelf.
(7) I do not have the same confidence in getting out of the ticket if my rig involves untapered mono and a fly and sinker rig weighing more than a Panther Martin. That demonstration would not be charming. And the physics are WAY uglier.
(8) From a practical if not a legal standpoint, there is no difference in my mind between a Euro or Joe Humphreys all-mono-split-shot-and-weighted-fly rig and a 16' leader/indicator/split shot/bead head rig that happens to be attached to a skinny fly line. Mono sure is cheaper, sinks better, and imparts less drag, but may be legally riskier. However, the distinction is minor, and arguing about it kind of silly.
(9) I'm really going to miss the opportunity to cast that little rod and several more like it at Superboo this year. :(
(10) I bet when Superboo comes back next year, we won't see many Euro or indicator rigs on the casting floor. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 12:14 pm 
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Joined: January 13th, 2017, 12:52 pm
Posts: 69
Location: MANCHESTER
Mike Holt wrote:
A Euro rig simply can't be cast in a normal fly casting manner because the mono can't propel the fly.


That's not necessarily true.

-- A tapered leader assembly with enough butt section of 20# cameleon can certainly allow a nymph rig to be cast, yes it truly can (additionally, some fly lines, including 'nymph' lines are simply heavy mono with a thin plastic coating... are we required to have a certain coating on our line?)
-- The answer of whether or not ANY GIVEN RIG can be cast can vary significantly (the amount of leader or fly line 'required' would naturally vary with the weight or wind resistance of the fly... like a big weighted streamer)
-- By your own admission, a rig 'CAPABLE' of propelling a fly is legal... so, if I can strip out enough fly line and leader to propel a nymph I'm validated... but I don't have to use it, because it is capable?


I just think that the streamer crowd should hesitate to throw stones or run their comrades under the bus... because there are PLENTY of grey areas that can be made to oppose the law from any style of FLY FISHING! Just think of the crowd lobbing cone head Golden Retrievers at the Dam Pool in April, or flipping streamers behind rocks they can touch with their rod tip in September at Moosehead streams... let your mind wander from there.

Or better yet, do we really feel that the 'worms in a coffee can crowd' is infiltrating our ranks and taking our spots by learning to tight line nymph? GET SERIOUS! Or that someone nymphing is somehow more harmful to the fish we all treasure. Try to unite fly fishermen rather than divide.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 12:23 pm 
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maineangler wrote:
InTheTrees wrote:
Does anyone really "cast" while using any kind of nymph rig? Doubt it. It's more "lobbing" or "flicking" than anything. Heck some of the nymph rigs I see (with weights & flies) resemble some of the things folks use to jig for mackerel on some of the fish piers. :lol:

The only exception I see is tying a dropper on a dry fly setup.

Good point.
I’m tight-lining, with no indicator, not out more than 12 feet or so, for almost all my nymph fishing. The indicator is useless because you feel everything.
I just fell into this method fishing heavy water, and it was so successful I basically adapted it outright. Almost always a barbless, two-fly rig. In extremely rare cases I might tie on a third. It’s not The Euro method...I couldn’t even tell you what the heck that is. But I’m not casting fly line, either. With little effort, I find it very easy to lob my mono/fluoro 12-14’ leader upstream to start the drift. After 15 mins working my way up or downstream, it’s just reflex. I Don’t even think about it.
I’m fly fishing, and I’d challenge the warden to prove otherwise, as foolish as that may be.


So- in your example- assuming the nymph rig and split shot are weight enough to cast that setup- would you still consider it to be fly fishing if the angler is throwing it with a spinning rod? Same rigging, different rod. I wouldn't. Think of it this way- a dropper weight tied with a grey ghost, stonefly, etc... tied of the leader above could be cast with either a fly rod or a spinning rod (provided the dropper weight is sufficient to propel the rigging out there). Heck- you could probably even tie the rigging off to a slim running line and throw it with a spinning rod with relative ease. But- it wouldn't be fly fishing- and would defeat the purpose of the FFO management tool- which Titleguy pointed out.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 1:03 pm 
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$30.00 for the hardcover of Trout Tatics. New and expanded. I wouldn't trade my 1990 paperback printing for the new and expanded edition though.

Image

Joe Humphreys signed mine in 1994. I was in Allentown on a Scott Paper project and got to go to the Somerset, NJ show that year. I called just a few days before the show when I found I could get the time off and was able to book into 3 fly tying classes. One with Joe Humphreys and George Harvey another with Gary LaFontaine and a final one with Page Rogers. I couldn't believe my luck.

Anyway, Jeff is right about the mono rig. Humphreys said the dangle the mono and fly downstream until the current tugged on the fly and to use that current to load the rod. 30' casts with ease. I quote:

"Level, flat monofilament with a tapered leader suitable to the waters the angler wants to fish will do the job of a fly line with considerably less confusion than using a complex formula that calls for monofilament backing plus level fly line plus high-density shooting-taper plus leader. When weighted nymphs or additional weight is adjusted properly on the leader, and the line is tight from rod tip to fly, you can feel almost every rock and pebble on the stream bottom through the monofilament, even at distances beyond thirty feet. For shorter casts, it's possible to use a simple underhand-flip cast and still enjoy the sensitivity of a fly rod."

Sounds like Euro to me or perhaps we should say Euro sounds like Joe Humphreys's flat mono technique.


Last edited by Mike Holt on January 11th, 2019, 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 1:17 pm 
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733SUBDUCKER - I have no problem with whatever technique any fisherman uses as long as it's legal and for now the legal definition IN MAINE calls for the line to cast the fly.

I stand by my statement that a Euro rig simply can't be cast in a normal fly casting manner because the mono can't propel the fly.

Here's a short clip from an explanation of Euro nymphing.

"Since your casts are really just lobs, and most drifts are right in front of you and only run as far as your rod reaches, you’ll also notice you aren’t using your fly line much. That’s why some Euro-nymphers don’t use fly lines at all.

Instead, they just use a 20’-30’ thin monofilament leader. A setup like this gives them incredible sensitivity. Not only can they feel strikes in the rod tip, but they can also hold the “leader” in their hand near the handle and pick up on subtle bumps of nudges in the drift." end quote

In my experience, no 20# butt section is going to roll over 20'-30' of thin monofilament leader. Perhaps you know of a way to roll 20' of level monofilament over. I don't.


Edited to add:

I can cast a well tied 12' tapered leader with a size 16 Adams on it without using a rod or line. I'd still call that fly fishing since the leader is casting the fly. If I just dabbled it downstream I wouldn't call it fly fishing.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 1:33 pm 
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I'll make sure I have a bit of fly line out of the tip while fishing with my barbless, lead free, two fly rig..... :D I did watch someone straight lining at the culvert one night- he was crushing the fish (and I know that's ALO) I had no problem with his tactics; I had a problem with him nymphing in front of everybody at 830 PM on a July evening in the midst of a caddis hatch- again another issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 2:17 pm 
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As Parker noted, the original FFO law called for no added weight. The main point of the law back then was conservation. As I think Lee Wulff said, "Trout deserve the sanctuary of deep water." That's definitely gone out the window with the developments in nymphing over the last few decades. Not that it matters in the grand scheme, but neither euro nymphing or bobber nymphing is "fly fishing" in the traditional sense.

Interestingly, true "euro nymphing" as it's currently done calls for a very long, very light rod that isn't even really designed to cast a fly line.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 2:55 pm 
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All of the Wardens I've spoken to over the years are pretty reasonable and have all agreed/concluded that if you're fishing with a fly rod, reel, flies, etc. and are casting, lobbing, flipping, drifting, etc. (which pretty much covers all the methods being discussed), then it's considered "fly-fishing".

I liken it to the definition of porn.....you know it when you see it. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Legal??
PostPosted: January 11th, 2019, 3:25 pm 
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Dang this was garbled. Made the edits to fix it!

titleguy wrote:
I had a problem with him nymphing in front of everybody at 830 PM on a July evening in the midst of a caddis hatch- again another issue.


That is another issue, and one that existed long before Euro nymphing. I used to fish a lot with Terry Walsh at a certain unnamed mid coast stream that reminded a certain unnamed Central Maine writer of a spring creek.

I learned to fly fish on remote northern hike-in streams; Terry learned on crowded public waters near Philadelphia.

I was an "I know exactly where that big trout lives, and I know that before this evening is over it will move into that slot over there and feed on emergers, so I'm going to sit here and wait until I see it rise, and then fish to it with dry flies" guy in those days; Terry was an "I know right where that big trout lives, and it probably won't rise for an hour and there are three others that are probably feeding in that run, so I'm going to run a nymph by the rock he's under and see what happens."

He almost always beat me to the fish, but sometimes it would go back to rising after he released it. :D


Mike, that signed Humphries book is really cool! I figured you'd have a copy.


Last edited by Jeff Reardon on January 11th, 2019, 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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