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 Post subject: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 24th, 2018, 4:25 pm 
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FFIMer

Joined: July 23rd, 2012, 12:11 pm
Posts: 171
Location: New Hampshire
I have been using firearms for over 50 years and had not heard of full copper ammo (not FMJ) until I read the information. I believe that the steel shot regs were killed (sorry abou the pun) by Trump et al, but have no idea of the ballastics for copper ammo. Just an FYI article which I found interesting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/24/us/a ... ndors.html


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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 24th, 2018, 6:05 pm 
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FFIMer

Joined: July 21st, 2011, 9:30 pm
Posts: 855
Location: Brunswick
I have not used solid copper bullets yet, I have used other lead free ammunition, but I've read a lot about solid copper. They have actually been around for a long time, and ballisticly identical to standard FMJ or any other bullet. The major difference is a solid copper bullet will penetrate further, and will tend to retain more weight as it stays together better. The only way a solid copper bullet will expand is if it is a hollow point.

I would support a ban on lead in hunting ammunition, the major hump I see is cost, solid copper (and other lead free ammo) is usually twice as expensive, if not more.

Peter

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"A good game fish is too valuable to be caught only once"
Lee Wulff


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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 24th, 2018, 7:14 pm 
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FFIM-aholic

Joined: February 14th, 2007, 1:00 am
Posts: 1401
Location: New Hampshire
Naive non hunter checking in... I guess I am surprised by the impact to scavengers... I guess I thought people carried the whole carcus out... I didn’t know they butchered in the field and left the whole thing there to be picked over.

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"Fishermen...spending their lives in the fields and woods...are often in a more favorable mood for observing her, in the intervals of their pursuits, than philosophers or poets even, who approach her with expectation." - Thoreau


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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 24th, 2018, 7:45 pm 
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FFIMer

Joined: April 27th, 2003, 12:00 am
Posts: 768
Its been my experience on other forums that threads like this are going to bring out the 2nd Amendment purists en mass claiming that there is no science to support the ills of lead ammunition and that this is a back door to outlawing hunting via it becoming cost prohibitive. So get ready...

Although I have to admit, non lead and non steel bird shot is costly compared to lead or even copper plated lead bird shot. And what would the alternative to a lead ball for muzzleloading with a PRB? Has anyone ever even seen a .54 caliber copper ball?


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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 24th, 2018, 8:53 pm 
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FFIMer

Joined: July 21st, 2011, 9:30 pm
Posts: 855
Location: Brunswick
Tim,
With large game you usually field dress.... remove the organs, some people quarter the animal and back it out, but I would imagine the majority of the issue is from scavengers eating the gut pile.

AW, they also make solid copper ammo for muzzle loaders.
I fully support a lead free for hunting, but not for all ammunition, it would be very expensive to go out target shooting with lead free. Most people don't shoot more then a few rounds per year while hunting, not including waterfowl which is already regulated lead free. The cost for the majority would be negligible, perhaps $3 or $4 per year...

Peter

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"A good game fish is too valuable to be caught only once"
Lee Wulff


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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 24th, 2018, 9:14 pm 
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FFIM-aholic

Joined: February 14th, 2007, 1:00 am
Posts: 1401
Location: New Hampshire
Thanks Peter. I am familiar with the field dressing concept, which I thought we’re just the guts. Reading the article it seemed like just a few bags of meat were making their way out. Maybe I was reading too much into it.

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"Fishermen...spending their lives in the fields and woods...are often in a more favorable mood for observing her, in the intervals of their pursuits, than philosophers or poets even, who approach her with expectation." - Thoreau


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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 24th, 2018, 10:22 pm 
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FFIMer

Joined: April 27th, 2003, 12:00 am
Posts: 768
Pete,

Are you referring to round ball or saboted conical? If round ball please point me in the direction of the manufacturer. That’s something I’d like to check out.


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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 25th, 2018, 12:57 pm 
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Joined: December 2nd, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 3591
Location: T3R11
I have not hunted for many many years now but when I did it was all lead ammo and easily 95% of ammo used was in target practice or sighting in. Given the small usage of ammo for actual hunting I'd think the extra cost for non lead ammo, while higher than lead, would be quite small

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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 27th, 2018, 12:21 pm 
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FFIMer

Joined: July 21st, 2011, 9:30 pm
Posts: 855
Location: Brunswick
AW,
I don't know of anyone who manufactures lead free musket balls, I'm sure they are out there somewhere.

Tim,
The article did make it seem that only a small amount of meat was recovered. In most states, it may be a Federal Law but I'm not positive on that, it is illegal to leave edible meat behind in the field. I know there are even states that require people to take the edible organs out with them.

Peter

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"A good game fish is too valuable to be caught only once"
Lee Wulff


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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 27th, 2018, 1:12 pm 
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Joined: December 2nd, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 3591
Location: T3R11
Peter010786 wrote:

Tim,
The article did make it seem that only a small amount of meat was recovered. In most states, it may be a Federal Law but I'm not positive on that, it is illegal to leave edible meat behind in the field. I know there are even states that require people to take the edible organs out with them.
Peter


Many many years ago My first taste of Deer Heart was from a left behind gut pile. My father and I met a hunter coming out and he mentioned leaving a pile of inners behind about a mile in. My father was never one to leave anything behind so we walked in and recovered the heart. Damn good.

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You see that dimple way over there? Well I couldn't hit it with a cruise missile.


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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 27th, 2018, 7:00 pm 
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FFIMer

Joined: May 11th, 2010, 12:11 pm
Posts: 432
Location: Maine
Growing up, in our family, we always ate the deer livers the first night and the deer hearts the second night (often with home made beans and bread)...it was all delicious! As an adult, I have avoided deer livers, because I have been told they may have mercury in them; and I have avoided deer hearts, because I have been told, they may be high in cholesterol. Have also passed on four family moose livers and hearts for the same reasons. I will probably find out someday, all the tasty livers and hearts, that I have left in the woods or have given away, are like eggs and coffee...really not unhealthy...in moderation :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 27th, 2018, 8:16 pm 
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FFIMer

Joined: April 27th, 2003, 12:00 am
Posts: 768
Wood Special wrote:
I will probably find out someday, all the tasty livers and hearts, that I have left in the woods or have given away, are like eggs and coffee...really not unhealthy...in moderation :cry:
One or two a year probably isn't going to hurt you. And would they have more of a concentration then fish?


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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 27th, 2018, 8:30 pm 
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FFIMer

Joined: April 27th, 2003, 12:00 am
Posts: 768
Peter010786 wrote:
AW,
I don't know of anyone who manufactures lead free musket balls, I'm sure they are out there somewhere.
Peter


Muzzleloading can be a cruel mistress Pete. 3 of my muzzleloaders have a twist rate specifically for a PRB. You have to search through trial and error to find the specific load, patch, ball, & lubricant combination to get consistent precision with your shots. Thinking more about it the thought of now tossing in a non toxic ball into the mix seems to add uncertainty to a known formula. The non toxic ball would have to have the same ballistic characteristics as a lead ball and I'm not even sure such a creature exists.

Don't get me wrong, it seems that copper bullets have a lot of good going for them, but I would hate to lose the ability to take game with a PRB.


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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 28th, 2018, 9:42 am 
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FFIMer

Joined: July 3rd, 2011, 10:53 pm
Posts: 141
Location: On the water.
Non-toxic round balls:

"The projectiles are tougher than lead, and thus penetrate deeper than a comparable ball made from lead, yet provide a close-to-lead trajectory and will not harm barrel steel. Available in .32, .45, .50, .54 and .60 cal., TomBob Outdoors’ ITX muzzleloading round balls are sold in 8- to 30-count packages (depending on caliber) for $12-$17"

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/4/15/tombob-outdoors-itx-lead-free-muzzleloading-round-balls/


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 Post subject: Re: Copper Ammo
PostPosted: November 28th, 2018, 1:00 pm 
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FFIMer

Joined: May 11th, 2010, 12:11 pm
Posts: 432
Location: Maine
AusableWulff wrote:
Wood Special wrote:
I will probably find out someday, all the tasty livers and hearts, that I have left in the woods or have given away, are like eggs and coffee...really not unhealthy...in moderation :cry:
One or two a year probably isn't going to hurt you. And would they have more of a concentration then fish?


AW, you definitely make a strong case...I agree with you!


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