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PostPosted: October 18th, 2018, 7:23 am 
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Thanks for the update Dan! I can't imagine why anyone would be motivated to kill those fish but something doesn't smell right - as Hunter said...all males?!? Regardless, losing those fish is a loss and I hope they figure out what happened - love that river.


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PostPosted: October 18th, 2018, 11:57 am 
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Salmosebago wrote:
Thanks for the update Dan! I can't imagine why anyone would be motivated to kill those fish but something doesn't smell right - as Hunter said...all males?!? Regardless, losing those fish is a loss and I hope they figure out what happened - love that river.


Ditto... something is certainly off.

I'm also kind of surprised by the number they counted.. I had no information on it, but always assumed that number would be higher. I'm sure there were fish that ran before the weir was in place, and possibly some stragglers that will come up later. Going by my rough knowledge that LLS spawn at years 4, 6, and 8.. and so forth if still alive, I always guessed the spawn would be approximately 1/4 of the population of fish in the lake. Maybe I was wrong to assume that from what I had read. But the total population of salmon in Sebago has got to be more 8,000ish fish.... right?

Peter

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PostPosted: October 18th, 2018, 12:39 pm 
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Pete,

I wouldn't be surprised if the body of the spawning run is just entering the river now. In my experience at GLS- it's not uncommon for the fish to hold off entering the stream there until just before the closing of the season. I'd expect about 2/3rds of the population to spawn in a given year. The population estimate for adult Sebago LLS is only around 8k to 10k fish- which is in line with historical annual stocking levels. Current wild production comprises somewhere around 60% of the population- so, if 2/3rds of the wild fish enter the river in a year- that's only 3,200 to 4,000 spawners per year. It will be interesting to see how many fish ultimately are counted at the weir.

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PostPosted: October 18th, 2018, 7:56 pm 
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Water temp and flow certainly creates variances but historical data shows that this week will be about the peak for upstream migration tailing off second week of Nov. lots of fish are still staging right at the mouth of the river.

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PostPosted: October 19th, 2018, 10:07 am 
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Formerly Larvae wrote:
Water temp and flow certainly creates variances but historical data shows that this week will be about the peak for upstream migration tailing off second week of Nov. lots of fish are still staging right at the mouth of the river.


I looked at the weir study the Department performed on Moosehead tributaries last night. I find it interesting that the runs on the Roach and Socatean Stream peaked in mid-September and tailed off by October. I have to wonder if there are more than one run (in which case- perhaps they missed the a portion of the later run-up fish), or if those systems behave differently for other reasons.

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PostPosted: October 19th, 2018, 1:25 pm 
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Hunter wrote:
Formerly Larvae wrote:
Water temp and flow certainly creates variances but historical data shows that this week will be about the peak for upstream migration tailing off second week of Nov. lots of fish are still staging right at the mouth of the river.


I looked at the weir study the Department performed on Moosehead tributaries last night. I find it interesting that the runs on the Roach and Socatean Stream peaked in mid-September and tailed off by October. I have to wonder if there are more than one run (in which case- perhaps they missed the a portion of the later run-up fish), or if those systems behave differently for other reasons.


That’s interesting Dave. I remember years ago talking to a state employee on the Kennebago and they were getting ready to trap net salmon during bird season and when I was amazed at the number of salmon he mentioned, he replied that it was just the start of the run. I always felt without looking at data or hearing about it that salmon ran heavy mid to late October.

One year we met up with JB and company on WG and I brought my boat. I feel it was the last weekend of the season and the down lake migration of salmon to the dam was impressive. From the boat you could see pods of them going by the gravel bar out from Kennys Camps towards the dam.

May have been the last time I have been to that place.

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PostPosted: October 19th, 2018, 3:39 pm 
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Thanks Dave,
I had always expected some fish held off, but thought the majority were in the river before mid October. I have caught post spawn fish in the lake starting in November, probably late November, so figured the spawn was late October.

Peter

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PostPosted: October 19th, 2018, 4:53 pm 
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A bit more information in Brian Lewis's (Asst. Bio in Region A) MDIFW blog post today.

https://www1.maine.gov/wordpress/insideifw/


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PostPosted: October 19th, 2018, 8:01 pm 
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Read the crooked river study and Sebago Lake management plan. Both are FULL of good information.

Fish move up the river all season. There is data suggesting a good number of fish move up river over Bolsters as early as May and June.

In 2015, I attended a meeting at Cabelas with department representatives, TU members and other anglers. The intolerance for an opposing opinion from department staff and some TU members was nauseating. Certainly and us vs them aire in the room. Both the advocates and those that opposed contributed to the environment. I sat and observed and really can’t get behind either group to support this.

We were advised that there would be adequate electronic and human surveillance of the weir when poaching, predation and catastrophic concerns were raised.

If a camera or cameras were hung and there is evidence of vandalism, I am a proponent of prosecuting to the fullest.

If there is no evidence, will we see a press release from the state about how they suspect their weir “may” have failed? ......I have no hope of this happening.

My name is on a managed list of volunteers to help and I have not been called.

Not sure about others on here. Anyone volunteer and not get called...??..

If wind and rain are forecasted, with this rivers propensity to collect leaf and pine needle debris, checking the box on a cadence of every three days doesn’t feel adequate.

I left that meeting in 2015 and within a week had several phone and email discussions with the regional biologist (at the time.) He was very patient with my thirst for information and did a great job answering the questions I asked.

I spoke to a good friend that is a fisheries biologist in Oregon to discuss his experience with weirs.

In the end, I couldn’t support the project based on the position taken by the department with the scribner mills dam reconstruction. They worked hard to reclassify the river to a class A waterway so the scribners mill and other impoundments cannot be constructed.

The state sent a strong message that they wanted the fish to swim freely to spawn.


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PostPosted: October 20th, 2018, 7:15 am 
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Dear Mark Latti MDIFW:
" In addition to the photo of the 1 large salmon captured at your weir,could you please post blog photos of the 12 dead salmon which you have along with mortality figures of salmon killed by the weir up to this point."
Thank you.


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PostPosted: October 20th, 2018, 7:55 am 
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I am not in favor of the weir. In the days of tearing down river obstructions to promote fish migration, it doesn’t make sense to add one in the name of biological data. Data that can be obtained other ways. Methods that are certainly less intrusive on the fish and more cost and manpower efficient. I strongly believe the reward doesn’t come close to the risk. I have spent countless hours observing trout and salmon during their spawning rituals. When the water is right they run great distances. When its not, they don’t move. To stress them out in a holding pen, and then dope them up and handle them all while the water drops makes no sense. Not to mention you are artificially congregating them, making them more susceptible to predation, poaching, disease, etc… Only 12 dead salmon you say. You really think these are the only 12?? If they died from post spawn stress, that’s one thing. That’s nature. Dying from a poorly designed weir and holding pen is another. And, this no poaching incident. I wish dept would just own this as being a design flaw in the weir. Plenty of cameras there that would show evidence of foul play. Own it and move on.
Some of these biologists are friends and or acquaintances of mine. Some are not. I do not like speaking in a less than positive light regarding what they or the dept. have done past or present. Some are very dedicated to their profession. However, some of their decisions, actions and comments over the years make no sense. Who are they accountable to? Most anglers think what they say or do is gospel. Being very fortunate to spend a career in the woods and on the waters of this state, I know that is not always true. I am not a fisheries biologist. My comments are based on years of observations. No question, some of this is political. and unfortunately, politics is starting to play a factor in the management of fish and game in this state. Not good at all. Anyway, the Crooked. The reason that the Crooked has been a great wild salmon river is because the dept has stayed away from it for the most part. My $0.2s.


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PostPosted: October 20th, 2018, 8:01 am 
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It's been my belief that the lls run in the Crooked doesn't even start in earnest until the end of Oct. Hence one of the reasons that IFW allows fishing to the15th. I have spent many a (mis-spent) day below the dam on Panther Run well past Thanksgiving watching the salmon stack up in the run below the dam pool there. It's not the Crooked, but a main trib for Sebago.

I also subscribe to the spring run theory.

I am also very concerned that this river is becoming "loved to death". Especially in the fall....it wasn't that long ago when I'd have the entire river to myself in October. Now, I'll see 10 people walk by while fishing a pool. I think the 'net has much to so with this.

Just a few pennies from a guy who's fished this river since 1986...


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PostPosted: October 20th, 2018, 10:47 am 
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Boneylegs wrote:
I am also very concerned that this river is becoming "loved to death". Especially in the fall....it wasn't that long ago when I'd have the entire river to myself in October. Now, I'll see 10 people walk by while fishing a pool. I think the 'net has much to so with this.

Just a few pennies from a guy who's fished this river since 1986...


Someone will surely fill me if I am wrong, but I believe the Crooked River is the only 100% wild trout or salmon river in Maine that is open to fishing after September 30. (If there is another, my concern below applies to it to.) All by itself, that: (1) raises the question of whether fishing the spawning run is appropriate; and (2) virtually guarantees a crowd, as it's an opportunity that is only available in one place.

Should we treat the Crooked like every other wild salmon river? I don't think there is any evidence that the fall fishery has compromised the continued recovery of wild Sebago salmon, but that could change as pressure increases.


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PostPosted: October 22nd, 2018, 9:14 pm 
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I noticed a picture on the Sebago TU Facebook page of a weir.

Is that this weir?

It looks like SRS described. Leaves jamming it up.


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PostPosted: October 23rd, 2018, 5:25 am 
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acupla thoughts...

I don't have enough knowledge to comment on the weir but I wouldn't be quick to demonize DIFW as they were involved in the dam removals at Bolsters and Scribners and helped put the brakes on the mill restoration at Scribners. Those actions have saved a good deal more fish than the 12 killed, for whatever reason, at the weir.

I've been fishing the river off and on since the mid 70's and I haven't seen any noticable increase in pressure during that time. Sure, some days are busier than others but you could say that about any spot. I don't believe the www devil has much to do with that. We used to catch a lot more trout 40 years ago but they probably stocked a lot more trout back then as well and that would draw a small crowd. When I was a kid there was an old fella in town who owned a camp on Quimby Pond. He'd close up the camp in September to move back home so he could spend the month on the Crooked. That river has been loved for awhile.

I'm not suggesting that there's nothing to worry about and that the river shouldn't have special treatment, but I don't think the sky is falling into the river, either.


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