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PostPosted: June 24th, 2018, 8:29 am 
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Roundabout. Would that be the Kennebago?


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PostPosted: June 24th, 2018, 10:58 am 
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Split Shot wrote:
Roundabout. Would that be the Kennebago?


Nope. At least that's not the river I have in mind.

Jeff, I don't think anyone (at least not me) is saying that rivers that had historical stocking aren't worth protecting.
The point I was trying to make was that from time to time this issue comes up.
Like many things sometimes people don't know ,care or bother to take the time to understand history. As it relates to this subject, I personally have always wondered if the wild fish I catch in popular rivers with a history of stocking are truly (genetically) wild or are they the progeny of a once stocked fish.
Not an argument for or against management policies at all, just curiosity on my part.

Edited to add: I know a few purists who talk up how great the fishing is at times at Upper Dam. That always gives me a chuckle.


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PostPosted: June 24th, 2018, 12:41 pm 
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Back to the original post, a few more points:
Since both LLs and brookies are stocked there, it's plain to see that stocked fish can provide both laughably easy and satisfyingly difficult fishing.
In Maine, wild/native doesn't necessarily equate to a fishing challenge. Eastern Brook trout are well regarded as one of the most gullible. While the oft-stocked Euro brown is one of the most wary. Bows with their little mouths are also quite finicky.
And many of us have seen how a wild/native LL on a spawning mission or starving for smelts is easily provoked to the take.
Just because we may prefer the strength of a large wild LL or BKT and the environs in which they thrive, doesn't necessarily mean they are the holy grail of a challenge. And although we may hold up our noses to 8-11" stocked browns and rainbows in marginal and sub-urban streams, these fish can often exhibit remarkable selectivity in their feeding.
One more point on the Original post. The father and son duo remarked that this fly fishing thing was easy. While I don't share that view and have often struggled to introduce newbies to the finer points of the game, I think it's fantastic when those with little or no experience can have a hot day of catching trout on the fly. If they think it's easy, it probably means they are coming back for more, which is a good thing...

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PostPosted: June 24th, 2018, 5:44 pm 
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RoundaboutCaddis wrote:
Split Shot wrote:
Roundabout. Would that be the Kennebago?


Nope. At least that's not the river I have in mind.

LOTS OF STOCKING ON THE KENNEBAGO. THOSE SALMON ARE NOT NATIVE. BROWNS ALSO STOCKED, AND A FEW ARE STILL CAUGHT IN KENNEBAGO LAKE. ANYBODY EVER TAKE ONE IN THE RIVER? I ONCE SAW A ~1950 LOG BOOK ENTRY AT A PRIVATE CAMP THAT REPORTED A BROWN TROUT CAUGHT NEAR LOWER DAM.

Jeff, I don't think anyone (at least not me) is saying that rivers that had historical stocking aren't worth protecting.
The point I was trying to make was that from time to time this issue comes up.
Like many things sometimes people don't know ,care or bother to take the time to understand history. As it relates to this subject, I personally have always wondered if the wild fish I catch in popular rivers with a history of stocking are truly (genetically) wild or are they the progeny of a once stocked fish.

IF THEY ARE BROWNS OR RAINBOWS, THEY ARE PROGENY OF ONCE-STOCKED FISH. THAT'S ALSO TRUE FOR ALMOST ALL OUR LANDLOCKED SALMON, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE CROOKED RIVER AND TRIBUTARIES TO SEBEC LAKE. GREEN LAKE/UNION RIVER AND WEST GRAND LAKE/GRAND LAKE STREAM ALSO HAD NATIVE SALMON, BUT IN BOTH OF THOSE THE HISTORICAL AND ONGOING STOCKING IS SO HEAVY THAT IT SEEMS HIGHLY UNLIKELY ANY WILD FISH ARE UNTOUCHED BY STOCKING.

Not an argument for or against management policies at all, just curiosity on my part.

Edited to add: I know a few purists who talk up how great the fishing is at times at Upper Dam. That always gives me a chuckle.

UPPER DAM WOULD BE AN INTERESTING PLACE TO DO A STUDY. i WONDER HOW MANY OF THE FISH CAUGHT THERE ARE COMING UP FROM RICHARDSON LAKE, WHERE THEY ARE ALMOST ALL STOCKED DUE TO EXTREMELY LIMITED SPAWNING HABITAT AFTER UPPER DAM AND MIDDLE DAM WERE BUILT AND NO FISHWAYS PROVIDED, OR DROPPING DOWN FROM MOOSELOOK, WHICH IS ENTIRELY WILD WITH ABUNDANT SPAWNING AND REARING HABITAT IN KENNEBAGO, CUPSUPTIC, BEMIS, RANGELEY RIVER AND SEVERAL SMALLER STREAMS. EITHER WAY, THE SALMON ARE NOT NATIVE. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO LOOK AT THE GENETICS OF THE BROOK TROUT THROUGHOUT THE RANGELEY CHAIN AND SEE IF THE IMPACTS OF ONGOING STOCKING IN RANGELEY AND RICHARDSON LAKES ARE DETECTABLE.


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PostPosted: June 24th, 2018, 8:20 pm 
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I have caught fin clipped stocked Brookies at upper Dam. I have a photo somewhere of it.

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PostPosted: June 25th, 2018, 9:14 am 
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I stand corrected courtesy of Jeff, the one river I thought had never been stocked apparently had almost fifty years ago. Interesting...


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PostPosted: June 25th, 2018, 12:23 pm 
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Allagash?


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PostPosted: June 25th, 2018, 7:05 pm 
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RoundaboutCaddis wrote:
I stand corrected courtesy of Jeff, the one river I thought had never been stocked apparently had almost fifty years ago. Interesting...


I ran across some old Maine stocking records in google scanned documents one time. The numbers of fish stocked in really remote locations way before any of us was born was very eye opening.


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PostPosted: June 26th, 2018, 7:18 am 
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But the point of the original post was not about stocking in general or in history--it was about stocking practices now...


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PostPosted: June 26th, 2018, 10:48 am 
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Why do we need to stock so many remote ponds? Do they really struggle that much for recruitment? If there's natural recruitment in some fashion, then there shouldn't really be a need to stock, as long as you keep the regs in place to keep the take down to match recruitment, e.g. 1 fish limits or C&R.

In my opinion, we should draw a 20 mile radius around each stocking point and if there aren't as many people as there are fish stocked in that radius, then we should consider stocking those fish somewhere closer to people, unless there's really 0 natural recruitment, which does exist.

And yes, I agree with the idea that we should have some watersheds that we mark as off-limits to stocking.

Another way to do this: Mark every town/city in Maine with at least 10,000 people in it. And make sure you're creating sufficient stocked trout fishing opportunities there. Yes, I think the department already does this, but I'd shift even a little more in that direction.


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PostPosted: June 26th, 2018, 1:06 pm 
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As for pond stocking, if you've fished many trout ponds you've undoubtedly seen those that are "bottomless", i.e. have a bottom of muck and silt that won't support spawning. One fact that often gets lost is that so many of these habitats were altered by logging practices of the past. Ponds filled with silt and most of the productive streams were bulldozed to better float the logs. IF&W has done some restoration, but it has proved to be extremely expensive and never returns a stream to its original glory. Bang for the buck would have to guide future restoration efforts.

For the record, I'm no fan of put & take. I grew up catching sunfish and anything else that would bite, and I'm sure most kids would be happy with the same.


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PostPosted: June 27th, 2018, 10:46 pm 
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I remember reading a history of the pleasant ridge region in some almanac and it talked about stocking trout in the remote ponds in that region by horse drawn wagons and sleighs in the spring time. I dont remember where I read the article or series of writings , but I am sure that t was looking for some cool things to teach about in Maine history class about how different life was around here in the not to distant past. the one part that I thought was cool was that there was a bicycle that was hooked to an air pump that had to be pedaled the entire time ( either in the wagon or on the sled) in order to oxygenate the water. I believe that the fish were intended for lost pond if my memory serves me right. I also remember reading that the first Brown trout introduced to Maine were in or around 1883. who knows what has been stocked and where. There also were private fish hatcheries .Norridgewock had one , hence the name hatchery brook that is one of the headwater feeders of the Mill stream.


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PostPosted: June 28th, 2018, 6:45 am 
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Kenb has the names and dates, but there is a cool story of a guide in Parmancheenee who took it upon himself to stock the lake, due to the volume of fish being consumed by his sports. The granite pens are still in the woods on the hill above the eastern side of the lake. When you see the slabs of granite that he moved, it is pretty remarkable.

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