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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 7th, 2017, 3:16 pm 
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Joined: February 14th, 2007, 1:00 am
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The issue in question about FFO water, relates to czech nymphing, with no fly line propelling the rig, but more the weight of the flies.

The right angle rig will require the fly line to cast the flies, so is safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 7th, 2017, 8:24 pm 
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Joined: August 14th, 2013, 3:22 pm
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TGIF wrote:
The issue in question about FFO water, relates to czech nymphing, with no fly line propelling the rig, but more the weight of the flies.


This is false. The biggest problem with the various Euro methods is most don't fully understand them, they basterdise them and they confuse the various methods. I'm not going to get into writing a book here, but the design of the fly and technique are more important than the weight of the fly or flies, if you think Czech(or what you think is Czech) only requires one keep adding more or heavier flies, you will struggle. 90% of the indicator rigs I see, bobber, split shot, swivels and weighted flies as well, all have much heavier complete set ups and more tackle on the business end of their lines than a Czech or standard Euro nymph rig. Czech and standard Euro incorporate and utilize fly line and it's necessary, French and Spanish do not and in my opinion therefore have no place for discussion in FFO territory. I fish mostly standard Euro and my fly line is very important. I use an under sized line (2weight line on my 4weight) rod for nymphing, This allows me to use the weight of the fly line to deliver my flies but being undersized I avoid the weight of the line wanting to settle under my rod tip during the drift and pulling against my flies. No different than when an angler has to use an unorthodox casting method to get his bobber, split shot and nymphs up stream. Once that indicator fisherman's bobber hits the water and he/she lifts their fly line off the water an tracks with the bobber for an undisturbed drift, your using your fly line no more than one would in a czech presentation, just one has a bobber between them and the flies. Again, most people I see that question Czech, Euro, french and spanish confuse them, are misinformed, don't fully understand it, spread misconceptions about it, fail at it, eventually give it up and return to spreading their misinformed notions of it. There's is so much more to it, if you think that all it is, is eliminating fly line and adding heavier nymphs, you will struggle with it and you will continue to believe what you believe about it, it's easiest to criticize what we don't understand, and to the extent of accusing others of breaking the law. I will gladly spend a day fishing on any FFO with any Warden and I will fish this method all day and at the end of the day not only will I not have a ticket, but I can guarantee that the warden will be very accepting of the method and even show that most bobber fishing actually falls into more of a legal gray area than a properly presented Euro rig. They just lack education and understanding of the various Euro methods like many anglers who feel the need to make legal statements about them when they should be asking questions about it. I would love to hear what other anglers think the various Euro methods are, how their leaders are rigged and how they are presented, I'm guessing most are way off, never mind discussing the techniques use to accomplish various goals throughout a drift. I have yet to see on any Maine fishing forum or from any Maine angler anyone practice any of the methods properly, I've seen plenty of what they think it is, but none have been correct yet that I have seen or talked with to date anyhow.


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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 8th, 2017, 5:05 am 
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Having spent the better part of 2 years now in Europe, learning both methods with people who are VERY good at it( I am not) , I would disagree with your view.

Firstly, declaring innocence because water hauling a bobber rig is just as bad, won't hold up. It's like saying "the other guy was speeding too".

French method holds up to FFO if it is agreed that the leader is part of the fly line. The flies are so small and light, the leader actually acts as the fly line and propels the fly. If only the actual, plastic coated Dacron fly line counts as the fly line, then there is an issue, because mostly you're just casing a 22' leader. I think this case could be made.

As for czech, the whole basis of using a large (proportionally), heavy anchor fly, with little or no line out of the tip top. There isn't enough mass in the leader and small amount of fly line to propel the anchor rig, so, those are more likely propelled by the weight of the flies themselves.

Either way, it is probably a long shot to think a warden would see someone doing this and issue a citation.

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"Fishermen...spending their lives in the fields and woods...are often in a more favorable mood for observing her, in the intervals of their pursuits, than philosophers or poets even, who approach her with expectation." - Thoreau


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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 8th, 2017, 8:18 am 
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Joined: March 16th, 2013, 11:04 pm
Posts: 560
Tim, I disagree. Wouldn't right angle be considered illegal in FFO, as the bobber is in fact what establishes the drift, effectively taking the fly line out of the equation?
Having watched and learned from CZN, I can say that the methods he uses are undoubtedly legitimate FFO techniques.


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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 8th, 2017, 8:59 am 
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The rule is that the fly line must propel the fly... IN THE CAST... and you can see someone cast with a bobber on, most often with line extended. It doesn't matter how much line is on the water after the flies land and during the drift.

If there is no line out of the top, or not enough line to carry the mass to support the physics of moving the rig, however heavy or light it may be, I dont see how it meets the criteria of the law.

All of that said, I support these 100% in FFO water, and am trying to perfect them. I will very likely use them on Maine's FFO water this summer.

My commentary has less to do with saying that CZN is wrong in doing it, but more that the rule doesn't factor for this. But, by the letter of the law, I don't see how it flies (pun intended).

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"Fishermen...spending their lives in the fields and woods...are often in a more favorable mood for observing her, in the intervals of their pursuits, than philosophers or poets even, who approach her with expectation." - Thoreau


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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 8th, 2017, 9:46 am 
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Joined: December 2nd, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 3922
Location: Ellsworth
RoundaboutCaddis wrote:
Tim, I disagree. Wouldn't right angle be considered illegal in FFO, as the bobber is in fact what establishes the drift, effectively taking the fly line out of the equation?
Having watched and learned from CZN, I can say that the methods he uses are undoubtedly legitimate FFO techniques.


Courtney......

Tim is correct regarding right-angle nymphing on FFO water. The way the law reads it's the line carrying the flies during the cast....it says nothing about the drift.

Now, regarding the FFO law in Maine, as I understand it---Wardens reading this correct me if I'm mistaken----using a 20 foot leader and no flyline out of the guides does not constitute fly casting by the laws and definition that Maine DIFW put up.

Perhaps it's time (again) to re-define Maine FFO regs so that these European style nymphing methods do meet the letter of the law?? The way I interpret the laws as currently written the European style nymphing methods just don't meet the Maine laws for fly casting. Perhaps Wardens and Judges interpret the law differently?

Dave M

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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 8th, 2017, 10:44 am 
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Joined: July 21st, 2011, 9:30 pm
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Location: Brunswick
I don't think there is one method that is more or less legal then the other, I think it entirely depends on how it is executed. With both methods you could be 100% legal on one cast then make another cast and be breaking the law (as it is written) then go right back to a perfectly legal cast. I don't know how the wardens feel on this and how they will judge people who are not using the fly line to cast, that would be a great question to ask them. I'll admit, there are times when I am nymphing and catch myself making an illegal cast. Nymph a run with the line tight below you because of the current then just flip it upstream. Your using the weight of the water to load your fly rod. I see other people do this often as well. I try not to but sometimes I just plain forget and do it.

I do believe the law should be revised and updated. I don't know how it should read to make sure people are actually fly fishing and not just using a fly rod, reel and line to chuck a super heavy fly.

Peter

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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 8th, 2017, 11:03 am 
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Joined: February 14th, 2007, 1:00 am
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Lest we also forget that there are scenarios, where one doesn't have the space to make anything other than a water haul, due to the lack of back casting space.

As I said, I think we'd be hard pressed to find a warden who would issue a ticket to an otherwise law abiding fly fisherman, who is site nymphing with a unweighted #20 nymph, on a 20ft leader, because they don't have enough line out of the guides.

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"Fishermen...spending their lives in the fields and woods...are often in a more favorable mood for observing her, in the intervals of their pursuits, than philosophers or poets even, who approach her with expectation." - Thoreau


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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 8th, 2017, 3:49 pm 
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Joined: March 16th, 2013, 11:04 pm
Posts: 560
Dave M, Tim, et al.. It seems as though folks are operating on the assumption that euro style fishermen are running 20' leaders and no casting is involved. Quite the opposite. It is a method and technique, probably bastardized in my case, and many others as well. I run varying length sighters depending on depth, anywhere from 1'-3' long to a tippet ring and rig with mono or flouro from that, never exceeding 9'. I'm fishing this on a 10' rod. I CAST line and leader upstream and retrieve line as my flies are finding the depth,and seam I want them to be in as well as where the fish are feeding in the column. I usually have a tight connection to my flies about 4-6' upstream of where I can usually determine the take will occur.
That being said, my comment regarding right angle is no different. You are fishing the terminal tackle, period. Either way, the rod and line have manipulated the fly to achieve the drift you want/need. Once you have mended the bobber to get that drift, the depth set and tension of the bobber is then at the mercy of the current.
Again, I cast a length of fly line to the top of the drift, and retrieve line to get the presentation I want, always leaving line out of the tip. If that doesn't fit FFO definitions, then skittering caddis dries doesn't , nor does stripping streamers or swinging wets.
If a fish is taking emergers twenty feet away and you're fishing a 9' rod and a 9' leader do you back up twenty feet to cast to it?
In closing, it's hard to read someone's tone when they post, I know you gentlemen, and I'm not posting this to argue, rather for discussion and to hear your thoughts. This a great discussion for winter by the way, and here it is the middle of trout season.


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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 8th, 2017, 4:01 pm 
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Joined: February 14th, 2007, 1:00 am
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Location: New Hampshire
I think you have developed a midcoast style of nymphing. :lol:

It isn't unlike what I do with a kinked or coiled mono sighter. Where I cast the line like normal and the "drag" the flies downstream, feeling the ticking of the bottom.

That said, everything I have seen, read and been taught about the European methods would say that you and I aren't doing it right, because it is all about the leader, no line involved.

And now I am done... :roll:

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"Fishermen...spending their lives in the fields and woods...are often in a more favorable mood for observing her, in the intervals of their pursuits, than philosophers or poets even, who approach her with expectation." - Thoreau


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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 8th, 2017, 4:22 pm 
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Joined: March 16th, 2013, 11:04 pm
Posts: 560
Midcoast Style. Trademark!, I wholly agree I have bastardized it, but it's working. Well.


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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 9th, 2017, 8:33 am 
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Joined: December 15th, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 213
Location: Twin Bridges, Mt.
Interesting discussion. One quick comment re: RA nymphing and tippet. Many guides out here now purchase and use the PLine Fluoro in 250 yard spools for RA nymphing. Check out the price at Dick's for a great Fluoro. I carry a few sizes in my boat bag. Not too conducive to the vest though.

https://www.dickssportinggoods.com/p/p-line-fluorocarbon-fishing-line-15pleaplnflrcrbn4fli/15pleaplnflrcrbn4fli?camp=CSE:DSG_pg29572_ecom_PLA_452&gclid=CLrn9JPisNQCFQILaQodCB4Aag


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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 9th, 2017, 3:03 pm 
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Joined: February 14th, 2007, 1:00 am
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Location: New Hampshire
Cool! Have been looking for an option like that. I would certainly respool tippet spools for that price.

Too bad it is either 4 or 10 lb... 3 and 6 would be my preferences.

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"Fishermen...spending their lives in the fields and woods...are often in a more favorable mood for observing her, in the intervals of their pursuits, than philosophers or poets even, who approach her with expectation." - Thoreau


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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 9th, 2017, 3:51 pm 
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Joined: December 15th, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 213
Location: Twin Bridges, Mt.
TGIF, Cabelas has it in numerous sizes, all even weights though.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/P-Line-Soft-Fluorocarbon/743782.uts


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 Post subject: Re: Nymphs......
PostPosted: June 9th, 2017, 4:27 pm 
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Joined: December 2nd, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 3922
Location: Ellsworth
MM......

One question. Is that stuff real flouro......or mono treated with a flouro covering?

Dave M

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"Fish the West every year. Life is short; and you'll be dead a long time." Chris Hutchins--2009


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