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PostPosted: January 19th, 2002, 6:18 pm 
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FFIMer

Joined: December 21st, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 869
For several years now, I have tied my weighted flies with nontoxic substitutes for weight, and recently, Mike Holt told me that as far as he was concerned, the non-lead wire he sells doesn't bleed as lead did, reason enough to switch. If Mike's assessment is true, then we can skip the sealing step of the weighted wire while tying. <BR> <BR>However, I still have between 100 and 200 lead-weighted flies from the old days. People such as myself have flies with a dollar value somewhere in the three-digit range when counted in all. Would it be fair to ask us to throw these flies away if lead were banned? I make no judgment but was wondering how people feel about this topic.


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PostPosted: January 19th, 2002, 10:57 pm 
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Wanna-be Maineiac

Joined: December 15th, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 1517
Location: Montana
Steve Smith- While I do not disagree with you on the lead issue I do have some questions about it. First I would tell you that I am to old to beleave every thing that is reported on subjects such as this. There may be other motives for making such reports. If lead is doing harm to the Loon's or other birds then I will be the first one to stop using it. The report that you posted here has a lot of "may have's" and "might have's" in it. When I see this it makes me wonder and question such report's. <BR>To give an example of what I am talking about there was a story in the Washington Times on the 17th of December about such a study. <BR>Here is what it said. I will have to type it myself as I do not know how to get it on this post, so here goes. <BR> <BR> The Washington Times reported Dec.17 that three U.S. Forest Service employes, two U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service officials and two employs of the Department of Fish and Wildlife planted three seperate samples of Canadian Lynx hair on rubbing posts used to identify existence of the species in two national forests. Canadian Lynx is listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act. <BR> DNA testing found that two of the samples matched Lynx living inside an animal preserve and the third matched an escaped pet Lynx that had been held in a federal office until its owner retrieved it.When the falsified samples were presented to the seven plotters, they said they weren't trying to manipulate or expand Lynx habitat- they were just testing the lab's ability to identify the species through DNA analysis. <BR> To its credit the U.S. Forest Service didn't buy that defense.The imployees were banned from participation in the three-year survey of the Lynx, which recently concluded. <BR> Retired Fish and Wildlife Service biologist James M. Beers told the Washington Times the false sampling was amazing but not surprising."I'am convinced there's a lot of that going on for so-called higher purposes," he said. " It was rigged from the word go. It was full of bad biology and bad politics. It gave them( the federal government) carte blanche to go after ski resorts, stop road building and go after ranchers and tree cutters. <BR> <BR> This is most of the story I hope you can see why I question such reports. As I have said above if the lead is as bad as they say I will be the first to quit using it. But just show me the truth. The OldGuide

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PostPosted: January 20th, 2002, 8:54 am 
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FFIMer

Joined: January 20th, 2002, 1:00 am
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<BR> Oops, <BR> <BR> sorry about the double post- I don't know how I managed to do that. I also discovered that if you are not registered, you can not edit a post. <BR> <BR>Old Guide, The report is factual except for the theory that Loons may like the taste - that seems to be an educated guess. This does not relate directly to Loons but I have seen lead flashing eaten by squirrels. They must like the taste but how far can they jump with a bellyful of lead?


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PostPosted: January 20th, 2002, 9:40 am 
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Joined: December 21st, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 869
Steve, I wasn't critcizing your post...just throwing out a question not meant to point fingers at anyone. <BR> <BR>Just for the record, the last time I looked at that ongoing study on loon mortality (or at least I think it is ongoing), no loon had ever died after ingesting lead-weighted flies. Split shot with bait is another matter, though, because as Bourque noted, mortality is significant enough to catch anyone's attention. <BR> <BR>I personally think that anyone who uses lead wire in tying now shouldn't do it. Why? Because sooner or later, it will be illegal to use lead for fishing, so the transition should have begun to nontoxic materials. However, I question the fairness of the government forcing fly fishers to throw away their collection of lead-weighted flies that accumulated before the evils of lead became apparent. My collection has a market value of say $200 to $400.


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PostPosted: January 20th, 2002, 10:01 am 
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FFIMer

Joined: December 21st, 2001, 1:00 am
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Old Guide, I appreciate you putting the article about the Washington State lynx info in this thread. I cut and pasted it for my files. <BR> <BR>I do think such behavior from biologists is an anomaly, though. However, that planting of bogus evidence in Washington State does show these professionals are not above shenanigans at time. I think it is a miracle that officials caught these guys. One of them must have bragged to the wrong person, instigating the DNA study.


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PostPosted: January 20th, 2002, 12:27 pm 
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FFIM Addict

Joined: December 2nd, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 4239
Location: Ellsworth
Ken; <BR> <BR> On the issue of fairness of flies already tied that have lead in them---if I'm not mistaken it's illegal to use a fly with *any* lead on it in Yellowstone Park. We had to be very careful a couple of years ago on a trip West to take out of our fly collections any fly that had lead in it. <BR> <BR> I'm, like you, pretty heavily invested in "leaded" nymphs--although I haven't tied one up with lead--only lead-free wire--in a couple of years now. <BR> <BR> Didn't waterfowlers have to go to steel shot--no matter how many "leaded" shells they may have had left? The same should probably apply to us. <BR> <BR> If only one Loon's life is saved by going to non-lead flies--I'd be happy to throw away all my leaded nymphs--and lead-eyed Clousers (although I've been using Brass eyes for Clousers for several years now--so, to be truthful, I'm quite sure I have few lead eyed Clousers left in my collection). <BR> <BR> Dave M

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PostPosted: January 20th, 2002, 6:12 pm 
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FFIMer

Joined: December 2nd, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 255
Location: Saco Me
Yes and lets not forget ourselves. How many of you bit on your split shot,ate any of your kills that had lead in them, had or even still have lead in your water systems, I don't want the next generation to inherit any of my mistakes. So lets all get the lead out.


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2002, 9:37 am 
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Joined: January 20th, 2002, 1:00 am
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Maine Guide, <BR> <BR> <BR> In 1999 the definition of fly fishing was changed. It is legal to add split shot now. I think they should have kept the old definition, things are getting fuzzy now (read Pogo's post above). This is the old definition --- <BR> <BR>12. Fly fishing. "Fly fishing" means casting upon water and retrieving in the usual and ordinary manner. Not more than 3 unbaited artificial flies individually attached to a line to which no extra weight has been added. <BR> <BR> The current law is -- <BR> <BR>4. FLY FISHING means casting upon water and retrieving in a manner in which the weight of the fly line propels the fly. No more than 3 unbaited artificial flies individually attached to a line may be used. (NOTE: It is unlawful to troll a fly in waters restricted to fly fishing only). <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR><BR><font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Steve Smith on 2002-01-22 08:39 ]</font>


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2002, 9:57 am 
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FFIMer

Joined: December 21st, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 869
This time, I think DIF&W blew it when writing the definition of "fly fishing" in the regulations booklet. <BR> <BR>For example, as Steve and other have said, it reads, "Fly fishing means casting upon water and retrieving in a manner in which the weight of the fly line propels the fly." <BR> <BR>If you removed "and retrieving" from this definition, it would be an easy-to-understand sentence. In fly casting, the weight of the line makes the rod work and carries the fly along with it. In spin casting, the weight of the lure makes the rod work and carries the line along with it. This is such a simple distinction that it need not be complicated. <BR> <BR>As it is now, you wonder how the weight of the fly line helps propel the fly in the retrieve.


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2002, 11:30 am 
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Wanna-be Maineiac

Joined: December 15th, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 1517
Location: Montana
Ken Allen- I went to the State of Maine web page and read the short paragraph on fly fishing. I then called the Maine Warden Service trying to get a read on what makes up a fly line as in the regs it does not say. As I have said before I can cast a fly on a three weight rod with 40 pound mono. They were supposed to call me back, it seems that they were all out chasing snow sleds. It has been a week and no call back so I doubt that I will get an answer. I would like to ask you if you might try and find out what is legal to use for a fly line. Thanks The OldGuide

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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2002, 12:12 pm 
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Joined: January 20th, 2002, 1:00 am
Posts: 249
Grumpysmurf, <BR> <BR> Sinced they removed the "no extra weight has been added" provision you can use split shot as long as you can convince tge warden it is the fly line propelling the fly and not the weight. If you can not cast it in a normal manner and are just lobbing it into the water it is illegal but there is a gray area that is decided by the warden and his judgement. <BR> <BR> Old Guide, The law does not say you have to use a fly line, if you can make up a mono rig and cast it with the line doing the propelling it is legal but sheesh this sure does get confusing in a hurry. The law also does not require you to use a fly rod <BR> <BR>


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PostPosted: January 22nd, 2002, 5:03 pm 
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FFIMer

Joined: December 21st, 2001, 1:00 am
Posts: 869
Old Guide, I intend to contact DIF&W on this fly-fishing definition. Having dealt with these guys for 25 years now, I can assure you it will be an interesting ride. <BR> <BR>I'm confused on a point that might be clarified if someone helped me here. Some posters say it's okay to put split shot on a leader in FFO waters and others say no. I know it was once illegal to add split shot and it clearly stated that stipulation in the regulations booklet. Now, I cannot find this reg so apparently, the ones who say you can put split shot on a leader in FFO waters are right. However, if it is illegal, can someone tell me what page to look at in the regulations booklet. Thanks.


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